tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post1573476917163402512..comments2023-10-25T08:44:46.963-07:00Comments on Two Friars and A Fool: Homosexuality is like pedophilia or bestialityAric Clarkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-91448704791805231182010-11-18T06:55:26.139-08:002010-11-18T06:55:26.139-08:00I hope so, Kattie. But first we'd have to att...I hope so, Kattie. But first we'd have to attract the next generation. Though the other side makes much hay out of a few people here and there leaving our denominations, they never imagine that it is their own actions keeping thousands from ever stepping foot in a church.<br /><br />According to a membership report from last year, when you look at all the people who left the PCUSA and did not join another church, one can only reach this conclusion: 34,000 conservatives left the denomination because of their obsession over genitals, and 104,428 people left the denomination because they got sick of conservatives' obsession over genitals. <br /><br />http://www.pres-outlook.com/news-and-analysis/1-news-a-analysis/8909-oga-statistics-announced-pcusa-records-steepest-membership-loss-since-reunion-in-1983.htmlAlanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-49453383479401393832010-11-15T19:32:55.622-08:002010-11-15T19:32:55.622-08:00@Alan,
Well, maybe the style of church will change...@Alan,<br />Well, maybe the style of church will change as we attract the next generation. The great thing is that God works through us to establish the earthly face of the Church, but the Church is, always has been, and always will be the Church. My hope is that we are in it.Kattiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313727490126385824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-14660676836551454942010-11-15T12:14:33.276-08:002010-11-15T12:14:33.276-08:00I suppose that's nicer. Alas, by the time the...I suppose that's nicer. Alas, by the time the busybodies, fusspots, tattletales and scolds are finished, I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone in the next generation who wants to join any church.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-49336002476178076052010-11-15T06:13:53.916-08:002010-11-15T06:13:53.916-08:00I didn't know that was a Max Plank quote, but ...I didn't know that was a Max Plank quote, but I'd heard that said before. Sometimes that's just the brute truth of it.<br /><br />A more positive way of saying a similar thing would be that progress comes one newborn at a time :) That first generation born after segregation, for example, was different from the previous one for that very reason.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-25591349194843061432010-11-15T04:56:43.514-08:002010-11-15T04:56:43.514-08:00"n 10 years or less, we'll be ordaining L..."n 10 years or less, we'll be ordaining LGBTQ folks into our tiny, shrinking denomination. In 50 years, we'll wonder why we even fought over it. "<br /><br />Yup. Max Plank said of science that it advances "one funeral at a time." The same could be said for getting rid of any other unsupportable dogma.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-46343999163730447372010-11-13T13:55:31.002-08:002010-11-13T13:55:31.002-08:00"sex obsessed scholars ... enough of them to ..."sex obsessed scholars ... enough of them to gag on."<br /><br />Nice. LOLJodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15447125159108080797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-82906398049328999672010-11-12T18:26:02.134-08:002010-11-12T18:26:02.134-08:00The vote going the other way won't change many...The vote going the other way won't change many hearts, but it'll be a real reason for celebration. It'll mean that hundreds of people who could not be ordained before will be able to be ordained now. It'll mean that we no longer tacitly support not only poor arguments like the one we deal with here, but things like bullying and abuse toward sexual minorities.<br /><br />We will absolutely still fight over this at the next GA, and the one after that, and the one after that. The thing is - this is a change that will happen. I am a cynical pessimist, but I still trust in that, on a long scale.<br /><br />In 10 years or less, we'll be ordaining LGBTQ folks into our tiny, shrinking denomination. In 50 years, we'll wonder why we even fought over it. It'll be like stories of lunch counter sit-ins in the 50s are to my generation. I wonder how people, many of whom are still alive now, could possibly have felt and thought that way.<br /><br />It will be alien to us.<br /><br />On the short scale, sooner is better than later. I want to be part of a denomination and feel even more proud of our witness. Then dust off and turn to the next thing I feel passion around, because there's a *lot* more than this on my mind and heart...Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-91230999680880868372010-11-12T17:59:57.500-08:002010-11-12T17:59:57.500-08:00I'm afraid you're right about it not putti...I'm afraid you're right about it not putting a stop to those kinds of arguments. They'll continue to find sex obsessed scholars who will be glad to fabricate bigoted arguments to shove down our throats. There are enough of them to gag on.<br /><br />I'm hopeful that 10-A will pass. The early indications (based on the voting swings of the first seven presbyteries) are quite favorable. I'm guessing we'll know by late February. Most of the necessary, likely favorable, swing vote Presbyteries will have voted by then.<br /><br />Even if 10-A passes, I'm fairly certain the bestiality like arguments will hang in there for quite a while. There are just plain too many who will refuse to be a friend to their colleagues.Kattiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313727490126385824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-18502915618181614452010-11-12T16:10:02.808-08:002010-11-12T16:10:02.808-08:00I think you answer your own question. People who ...I think you answer your own question. People who make this argument have their heads stuck in the idea that "God gave them over to shameful lusts" - not just shameful, but truly equivalent to violating a child sexually or having sex with an animal. This post is just about cutting the legs out from under that argument with regard to it's own merits (it has none). I assume this blog post won't put a stop to the argument being out there, though.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-21198704131705345812010-11-12T15:33:45.785-08:002010-11-12T15:33:45.785-08:00When I see two Gays walking down the street hand i...When I see two Gays walking down the street hand in hand, I don't think to myself, "God gave them over to shameful lusts". What they do behind closed doors is their business, but I certainly don't assume it to be "shameful lust" any more than what goes on between any other loving human couple. Comparisons to Bestiality??? Nope, my mind just won't go there. I'm with Alan, wondering where their heads are stuck.Kattiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313727490126385824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-28496833557657526782010-11-12T06:18:35.922-08:002010-11-12T06:18:35.922-08:00One wonders, given that we hear this argument so o...One wonders, given that we hear this argument so often, even at Presbytery meetings, exactly what goes on in people's minds who compare loving relationships to bestiality.<br /><br />Why is it that the first thing so-called conservatives think about is sex with animals? Makes one wonder where their head is at.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.com