tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post7249216357419986930..comments2023-10-25T08:44:46.963-07:00Comments on Two Friars and A Fool: LGBTQ Ordination ResourceAric Clarkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-39975628300727610872012-08-22T19:37:04.695-07:002012-08-22T19:37:04.695-07:00diglot,
I did a short work-over of 1 Cor 6:9:
htt...diglot,<br /><br />I did a short work-over of 1 Cor 6:9:<br />http://rottenqueerchristian.blogspot.com/2012/07/arsenokoitai.html<br /><br />I plan on doing it with Romans when I get around to it. RQChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03745774007026113933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-43733572046841905772011-08-19T11:03:18.086-07:002011-08-19T11:03:18.086-07:00Re: Abomination, I ask, how did bacon make the tri...Re: Abomination, I ask, how did bacon make the trip past Leviticus, but not lgbt? Bacon is a popular pleasure, that's why! It might clog our arteries or kill us with carcinogenic nitrosamies, but it is traditional, so it is OK.Davidhttp://davidgpickett.home.comcast.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-80255188596482598862011-05-27T10:25:06.246-07:002011-05-27T10:25:06.246-07:00Birgit - I'm glad you think the article might...Birgit - I'm glad you think the article might be helpful. If you check the very bottom of this blog post, you will find links where you can download the document in two different layouts as a PDF document.<br /><br />Good luck!Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-43252383985618198502011-05-27T10:22:22.585-07:002011-05-27T10:22:22.585-07:00My PC USA church is having meetings about how to d...My PC USA church is having meetings about how to deal with this change. I would love to have a copy of your article to use as a resource. Thanks!!Birgithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03679961553678814040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-27891936796967224552011-04-10T01:46:39.993-07:002011-04-10T01:46:39.993-07:00Dammit - deleted my longer response. In brief:
W...Dammit - deleted my longer response. In brief:<br /><br />What you write I've heard, read and written many times in the past and basically agree.<br /><br />Our point was specifically about the word "abomination", which was used as the centerpiece of at least one argument in my Presbytery when we debated 10A. So, I obviously disagree that it is either an outdated point or that it is beside the point. We intentionally constrained what we wrote for each issue, and so had nowhere near the time to get into gender, rank and patriarchy in the OT.<br /><br />Thank you for the comments, though - those things need to be said as well in the larger discussion of sexuality and the Bible.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-63539534221492448082011-04-09T10:57:30.997-07:002011-04-09T10:57:30.997-07:00BTW I used the word "rank" because wives...BTW I used the word "rank" because wives and daughters were not possessions in OT society. Slaves were possessions who curiously still had some rights under the Law. Wives and daughters ranked above slaves. And occasionally a woman received the rank of a man or above a man, as in the case of Deborah and in a different way, Miriam. A look at the relationship between Sarah and Hagar will show the difference in rank.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01937075470385647244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-61728882926707126522011-04-09T10:41:15.133-07:002011-04-09T10:41:15.133-07:00Coming in a bit late in the conversation but . . ....Coming in a bit late in the conversation but . . .<br /><br />I think the comments on the Leviticus passages, particularly in relation to "abomination" are outdated and beside the point. One author who agrees with you overall (and I am terrible with names, sorry) says that Leviticus clearly labels sexual activity between two men as sinful but that one has to consider the context. The problem is patriarchy. <br /><br />If one looks at the context one sees a long list of people you can't have sex/ with but the kicker is why. If you have sex with your aunt the problem isn't that you have had sex with your aunt. The problem is that you have uncovered the nakedness of your uncle. The passage about a man lying with a man as with a woman must be considered within this patriarchal context. In effect anal penetration of a male treats that male as a female. To do so changes the "rank" (I think that is the right word) of the male who is penetrated. In a society that has rigid levels or ranks to have penetrative sex with someone who is your equal (both being men in this case) is a massive breakdown of society. So, by the way, is having sex with one's aunt. That affects the relationship (rank really is a better term here) between one and one's uncle. The aunt really doesn't count because she is of a lower rank.<br /><br />Curiously this is also the basis for the argument concerning incest. Incest in a patriarchal society is not about causing psychic pain to another. It is about the disturbance of the family (and societal) structure and the relationships between the men in the family. This is why Rob Gagnon talks about incest as a sexual relationship that is "too close." He means that the Levitical text says that sexual activity with those within the family is unacceptable because of the closeness of the relationship, not because of any emotional reason. His study of the laws concerning sex between men in other ancient societies is on point as well. Hammurabi thought it was fine for a man of higher rank to have anal sex with a man of lower rank as long as the man of higher rank was doing the penetrating. Having anal sex with someone of your own rank broke down the structure of society. <br /><br />But if one considers the whole question in a less highly structured/patriarchal society one has to ask if Leviticus can be considered to be on point or not.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01937075470385647244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-88848554623393038772010-11-23T08:03:14.612-08:002010-11-23T08:03:14.612-08:00Thanks for the new term. Even working in an immig...Thanks for the new term. Even working in an immigrant church, I hadn't heard that one, but it makes sense, and I can see how that would be its own category.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-35779698190138441542010-11-23T07:49:53.379-08:002010-11-23T07:49:53.379-08:00Hello!
"1.5 generation" refers to someo...Hello!<br /><br />"1.5 generation" refers to someone who immigrated to a foreign country during their teenage -- impressionable -- years. Someone who is somewhere in-between a "first generation" -- someone who immigrated to a foreign country as a middle aged adult, and therefore has difficulty immersing in foreign language and culture; and a "second generation" -- someone who is born in a country to immigrant parents, and identifies fully with that country in language, culture, education, and citizenship.<br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrant_generations#1.5_generation" rel="nofollow">1.5 generation</a>wonhoshinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03997451056708563007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-91577766757734332982010-11-22T22:34:42.252-08:002010-11-22T22:34:42.252-08:00Greetings Wonhoshin! I'm wondering - what is ...Greetings Wonhoshin! I'm wondering - what is a 1.5 generation Korean-American? I'm curious...Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-26116011346683973732010-11-22T21:20:33.744-08:002010-11-22T21:20:33.744-08:00Thank you for the great work, linked on my own blo...Thank you for the great work, linked on my own blog post .. :<br /><br /><a href="http://wonhoshin.blogspot.com/2010/11/why-i-stand-in-solidarity-with-lgbt.html" rel="nofollow">Why I Stand in Solidarity With the LGBT Community</a>wonhoshinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03997451056708563007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-44425805513549242372010-11-22T21:17:34.819-08:002010-11-22T21:17:34.819-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.wonhoshinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03997451056708563007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-82293291831981422332010-11-20T14:59:37.340-08:002010-11-20T14:59:37.340-08:00@Anonymous,
This resource argues for inclusion no...@Anonymous,<br /><br />This resource argues for inclusion no matter how one answers that question, but we've addressed that thoroughly <a href="http://twofriarsandafool.blogspot.com/2009/03/not-sin-introduction.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.Aric Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-62118265083309504942010-11-20T14:48:12.330-08:002010-11-20T14:48:12.330-08:00Question: Is homosexuality a sin?Question: Is homosexuality a sin?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-5215455690781355862010-11-16T20:28:08.903-08:002010-11-16T20:28:08.903-08:00I'm glad people are finding it useful. I know ...I'm glad people are finding it useful. I know that it is also being used actively in the Presbytery of the Mid-South, among other places. That's the part that I find rewarding - that it is proving helpful.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-21160548014152645922010-11-16T19:52:57.103-08:002010-11-16T19:52:57.103-08:00We copied the bulletin-ready format and inserted i...We copied the bulletin-ready format and inserted it in the bulletins for this past Sunday when I preached <a href="http://www.shuckandjive.org/2010/11/jesus-family-values-sermon.html" rel="nofollow">this sermon.</a> My presbytery votes December 7. The resource was well-received! Thanks!John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-30067006343430201022010-11-13T12:48:17.845-08:002010-11-13T12:48:17.845-08:00Thank you for this resource!Thank you for this resource!Christine Kooinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-88621386224126410292010-11-04T06:16:30.443-07:002010-11-04T06:16:30.443-07:00@ diglot: I agree that each of the classic bludgeo...@ diglot: I agree that each of the classic bludgeoning verses have to be dealt with - this is just the start. The main point that will carry over is the one about the connection between misogyny and homophobia. Also, interestingly, looking at 1 Cor 6:9, apparently Paul has nothing to say about lesbianism. But, anyway, I'll save it until we get to the Paul argument, one I wanted very much to expand on. Keep checking back in!Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-38915014563377672422010-11-04T05:59:34.420-07:002010-11-04T05:59:34.420-07:00"Change comes as more and more people have &#..."Change comes as more and more people have 'out' sexual minorities in their lives and realize there is nothing to be so afraid of."<br /><br />Exactly.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-28002216532876936792010-11-03T22:08:58.962-07:002010-11-03T22:08:58.962-07:00Thanks for the tip diglot. We are expanding our su...Thanks for the tip diglot. We are expanding our support for each argument about every 3 days or so. I think when we get to the point about Paul in the first half of the document, and the points about Peter and the Community of Equality in the latter half we will cover the subjects you are talking about. Hopefully. If you have suggestions for what to add or where to go, we welcome them.Aric Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-10556447829159781572010-11-03T22:03:21.857-07:002010-11-03T22:03:21.857-07:00You mention some valid points. However, I think th...You mention some valid points. However, I think that if you want to win over the anti-homosexual Christians, you may want to further explicate on what Paul says in Romans 1 and 1 Cor 6:9.<br /><br />In the Christian circles I run in, they are the only biblical passages that are pointed to. The only Christians I have heard use the passages from Leviticus,and the destruction of Sodom, are the likes of Fred Phelps.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-27398222852818525182010-11-03T18:43:12.239-07:002010-11-03T18:43:12.239-07:00This document is available to download as a pretty...This document is available to download as a pretty pdf with graphics and pop-out quotes and everything. I encourage everyone to take it, print it, and distribute it at presbytery, on seminary campuses, and even to use it for a discussion starter in your church. You may choose a 8.5x11 <a href="http://www.box.net/shared/lasrrn2chf" rel="nofollow">portrait format</a>, or a half-fold <a href="http://www.box.net/shared/7ml19zjl9z" rel="nofollow">booklet format</a>. Enjoy.Aric Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-8681024834797682362010-11-03T13:26:35.252-07:002010-11-03T13:26:35.252-07:00We are not, and have never been, rational creature...We are not, and have never been, rational creatures. Change comes as more and more people have 'out' sexual minorities in their lives and realize there is nothing to be so afraid of. <br /><br />When debating on the floor of Presbytery, though, I don't want someone who is a LGBTQ ally to be at a loss when presented with any of these arguments, or when asked to make a few arguments in favor of justice and inclusion.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-67325899660389856252010-11-03T12:49:07.862-07:002010-11-03T12:49:07.862-07:00Nice summary. Concise and to the point.
Now if o...Nice summary. Concise and to the point.<br /><br />Now if only people could be persuaded by rational argument and evidence....Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-18157228609799830612010-11-01T08:26:04.487-07:002010-11-01T08:26:04.487-07:00I edited "Homosexuality is like incest or pol...I edited "Homosexuality is like incest or polyamory" based on an angry email I received which made a couple good points. We'll see if we can edit the pdfs as well.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.com