tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post9168127564649388392..comments2023-10-25T08:44:46.963-07:00Comments on Two Friars and A Fool: LGBTQ persons already serve in other denominationsAric Clarkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-77153097431274812162011-01-14T18:00:55.370-08:002011-01-14T18:00:55.370-08:00Chris,
The passage of Amendment 10-A is not an att...Chris,<br />The passage of Amendment 10-A is not an attempt to pass judgment on the whole world, but leaving G-6.0106b in place retains the unjust judgment imposed by roughly half of the PCUSA on the entire denomination. So, who are the Donatists? I'm certainly not one of them.<br /><br />The Holy Spirit is working miracles within the church, and moving us closer to a just relationship with her members. All praise be to God!Kattiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313727490126385824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-18667152715347070722011-01-14T15:05:50.524-08:002011-01-14T15:05:50.524-08:00@ Kattie: Yup - ignoring Chris is definitely the w...@ Kattie: Yup - ignoring Chris is definitely the way to go. I realized I could have used that time wasted trying to force him to engage meaningfully when I could have been having conversations with people who are able to have conversations.<br /><br />I commend this fine method to one and all.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-74661373410238807862011-01-14T12:32:09.765-08:002011-01-14T12:32:09.765-08:00You misunderstand the context. St Augustine is spe...You misunderstand the context. St Augustine is speaking against the Donatists who have taken to passing judgment on the whole world (meaning the consensus of the catholic church). That's precisely what is happening in the PCUSA. They claim that for 1950 years, the whole world of the church has been mired in the sin of sexism and homophobia, and thus separates from the consensus of the catholic church across time and space in order to go its own way. Just sad...Chris Larimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01770607122746467750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-1848012055133704442011-01-14T09:31:18.950-08:002011-01-14T09:31:18.950-08:00"Securus iudicat orbis terrarum"
The ve..."Securus iudicat orbis terrarum"<br /><br />The verdict of the world may indeed be secure, but within the history of the church, it has been anything but static. Thank God for that!<br /><br />Chris, you don't have to be sorry unless you intended to take my time. I gave my time freely.<br /><br />As far as shaking the dust off goes, I have always been willing to listen to your words, and welcome the opportunity to debate you, so no "shaking" testimony would be warranted. Your argument didn't prevail here because it was weak and never appeared to be guided by the Spirit of God.Kattiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313727490126385824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-91877910351700721682011-01-13T12:34:08.631-08:002011-01-13T12:34:08.631-08:00As Augustine said: "Securus iudicat orbis ter...As Augustine said: "Securus iudicat orbis terrarum."<br /><br />It's past time I shook the dust off.<br /><br />Sorry to have taken your time.Chris Larimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01770607122746467750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-67991854131374630512011-01-09T22:01:48.396-08:002011-01-09T22:01:48.396-08:00And this has to do with the Heidelberg Catechism a...And this has to do with the Heidelberg Catechism and the translation of God's Word how exactly???<br />You want me to believe that Luther skirted the issue of Homosexual sex (in God’s Word) by referring to it euphemistically as boy molestation? Sorry, I’m not buying into that so easily. It doesn't look like a particularly good euphemism to me. You need to show that this particular “euphemism” would be understood by their culture to mean all Homosexual sexual expression, and present evidence that Luther meant it to be a euphemism. Your approach doesn't touch Luther at all.Kattiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313727490126385824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-88371902224037579182011-01-09T21:17:54.259-08:002011-01-09T21:17:54.259-08:00Nationalities as referents area common way of allu...Nationalities as referents area common way of alludingto sexual deviance. Sodom and Lesbos are obvious examples. Ancient Greek had several ethnic-sexual verbs. Lesbizein, "to act like a Lesbian" (in the geographic sense) meant fellatio (heterosexual only, as far as I can tell). Phrygizein, "to act like a Phrygian", i.e. a pre-Turk inhabitant of northwestern Turkey, the area around Troy, meant masturbation. And syrizein, "to act like a Syrian", meant anal sex. Korinthianize is also a well known example. <br /><br />The Medieval period is covered very well by a scholar named Karos in a book called Sexuality in the Middle Ages. It's on google books so you can search it for euphemism (which will give a good quick overview of both practice and canon law regarding not uttering the unmentionables).Chris Larimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01770607122746467750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-14030716330274143922011-01-09T20:38:52.118-08:002011-01-09T20:38:52.118-08:00"I could present that evidence"...
Do s..."I could present that evidence"...<br /><br />Do so if you can. I am not afraid of truth, I embrace it. To take a line from you, "I welcome disagreement. Say what you will, but back it up. I'm from Dixie - not ipse dixit!"Kattiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313727490126385824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-83288287315293213982011-01-09T19:59:01.759-08:002011-01-09T19:59:01.759-08:00An age without shame doesn't even get the conc...An age without shame doesn't even get the concept. There is evidence that the issue was skirted and direct mention rarely undertaken. I could present that evidence, but again - shameless people don't understand that there's anything to be ashamed of in this "debate."<br /><br />Again, the consensus of 6000 years of covenantal history as well as simple biological fact doesn't convince you to change course or swerve from the sirens of our zeitgeist, so I can have little hope of doing better.Chris Larimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01770607122746467750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-26034492259406121042011-01-09T19:37:40.781-08:002011-01-09T19:37:40.781-08:00Chris,
Of course Gagnon makes his claim (as you ap...Chris,<br />Of course Gagnon makes his claim (as you apparently do also) without a shred of actual documented evidence as to their actual intent. Whenever Gagnon's arguments are particularly without evidentiary foundation, he states them most emphatically as being obvious. Such as in this case:<br />"The only logical reason for sixteenth-century reformers to omit terms having to do with sexual immorality, especially homosexual practice, is that these behaviors were viewed as obscene and thus wholly inappropriate to mention, especially in a catechism that would be used to instruct children."<br />Gagnon makes that up as his truth, because it fits his personal bias and agenda. Wow, the “only logical reason” huh!? That’s typical Gagnonian BS. Where is the actual evidence? Oh, that's right, there isn't any. You might think you're making a good case by quoting that guy, but I'm not fooled by him.Kattiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313727490126385824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-35663042407322122472011-01-08T20:44:15.319-08:002011-01-08T20:44:15.319-08:00Kattie,
I'm truly befuddled at the world you ...Kattie,<br /><br />I'm truly befuddled at the world you imagine from 500 years ago. The Reformers upheld without reservation the truths of the catholic creeds. I mean...isn't the great slander against Calvin that he had Servetus burned at the stake for being an anti-trinitarian heretic? And <a href="http://www.peter-ould.net/2010/09/09/translation-issues-of-the-heidelberg-catechism/" rel="nofollow">Calvn's consistent position (as well as that laid out in the Heidelberg) is that homosexual practice is such a perversion of the moral order that it is not mentionable in polite discourse</a>. (Hint: One can be Reformed without being Presbyterian; one can be an orthodox Christian without being Reformed; but one cannot be Reformed without first being an orthodox Christian.)<br /><br />Doug,<br /><br />I find it most telling that you think the real threat to the church - the community Jesus founded and continues to use in the dispensation of the Spirit's gifts - was that they got together and spoke authoritatively about the doctrine received from the apostles...and that Arianism (the idea that Jesus was less than Almighty God) was not the real threat. This speaks volumes about your take on orthodoxy, and why you fail to see the living voice of the apostles as the goal of hermeneutics (opting instead for some sort of self-appointed sense of "justice").Chris Larimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01770607122746467750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-2856252729805934702011-01-08T20:15:33.312-08:002011-01-08T20:15:33.312-08:00As for Nicea - it was convened by the Emperor of R...As for Nicea - it was convened by the Emperor of Rome, who did not care a bit about which theologies would win out, only that there was supposed unity - for the sake of Empire, not of the Gospel, which was surviving quite well despite imperial attempts to stamp it out. So-called orthodoxy is always imposed top-down. <br /><br />If the punishment for dissent is excommunication, being declared anathema, and/or being killed, it is the height of absurdity and ::ahem:: *revisionism* to declare univocality. If there was no punishment for dissent, this imaginary univocal Christianity would be impossible even for Chris to invent.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-14302087586464822402011-01-08T18:25:30.687-08:002011-01-08T18:25:30.687-08:00Not to mention 2000 years of actual Christian hist...Not to mention 2000 years of actual Christian history during which, amazingly enough, Christians disagreed with each other. But as I said in another thread, I'm going to tap Chris's fantasy-world-dust off of my sandals and move on.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-64753697639147302702011-01-08T18:22:59.433-08:002011-01-08T18:22:59.433-08:00Doug,
It's frustrating trying to deal with som...Doug,<br />It's frustrating trying to deal with someone whose view of orthodoxy isn't derived from the views of the great Reformers. You can't convince him, and he can't convince you. There's five hundred years of reasoned Christian history separating us from him.Kattiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313727490126385824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-76660075953261064222011-01-08T18:09:10.173-08:002011-01-08T18:09:10.173-08:00No war, Chris, but are you going to tell me that t...No war, Chris, but are you going to tell me that they did not arise out of an internal conflict in the Church?Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-54625690228266821872011-01-08T17:55:36.717-08:002011-01-08T17:55:36.717-08:00Doug,
I'm thankful (in a way) for heretics th...Doug,<br /><br />I'm thankful (in a way) for heretics through the ages. They have provided the opportunity for the church to clarify the doctrine of the Apostles. Now, what war caused the Council of Nicea? Constantinople? Lyons?Chris Larimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01770607122746467750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-89474155901303032602011-01-08T17:46:39.539-08:002011-01-08T17:46:39.539-08:00Chris, you speak nonsense. Univocal until 1050? ...Chris, you speak nonsense. Univocal until 1050? You are living in some kind of hallucination. Wars absolutely establish orthodoxy - they always have and always will, with occasional inquisitions and mass-excommunications thrown in.<br /><br />I'm actually baffled how you can't see the contention present throughout the history of the Church. I know you've read the New Testament and some church history, but I have no idea how you so completely misinterpret it. Do you imagine that the church holds great councils, and declare anathema anyone who does not attend and agree, because everyone agrees already?<br /><br />Though I have a funny feeling that this conversation will just continue to go nowhere.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-59966103417901247902011-01-08T17:19:41.869-08:002011-01-08T17:19:41.869-08:00I find it amusing how my siding with the historic ...I find it amusing how my siding with the historic consensus of the church is somehow morphed into "Chris wants everything *his* way...how arrogant!!" And, of course, the clear corollary is that your way (or at least the sect that you represent) is the truth-tellers.<br /><br />Doug - Wars don't establish orthodoxy; the univocal voice of the church does that. Sadly, we haven't spoken with one voice on all issues since the 1050s. But I do find it interesting that the church has never been confused on this issue, and still speaks with a united voice on its morality, despite the exported American fiasco.Chris Larimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01770607122746467750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-40783388854924394982011-01-08T16:59:00.372-08:002011-01-08T16:59:00.372-08:00"universal consensus"? I'll say thi..."universal consensus"? I'll say this, Chris, you have a vivid imagination when it comes to pretending people agree with you - and have for all time, apparently.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-17295504277221955862011-01-08T16:51:54.314-08:002011-01-08T16:51:54.314-08:00Chris,
Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, et al, Yeah, I wou...Chris,<br />Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, et al, Yeah, I would say you shouldn't be so opposed to the notion.<br /><br />"Twilight"<br />Another Conservative joke, right?<br /><br />http://www.ebiblefellowship.com/may21/<br />I wonder if Bob Campbell knows about these guys.Kattiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313727490126385824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-75609152557546467522011-01-08T16:43:26.731-08:002011-01-08T16:43:26.731-08:00@ Chris: how many wars and inquisitions did it tak...@ Chris: how many wars and inquisitions did it take to establish your beloved "orthodoxy"? I always love when you accidentally refute yourself. But I agree! Your absurd notion that everyone must agree with you, not to mention that Christian history is monolithic (and in line with your own views), clearly takes a huge amount of effort. And that isn't even getting into your particular peculiar notions.<br /><br />And even given dozens of recent comments, I would hardly call it "established". I'd actually say you're still at square one where that's concerned. All that work...it is hard to establish untruth. Keep trying, though! You seem to enjoy the windmill-tilting.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-4991978668159700402011-01-08T14:33:39.169-08:002011-01-08T14:33:39.169-08:00Doug,
How hard untruth has to work to establish i...Doug,<br /><br />How hard untruth has to work to establish itself....<br /><br />Kattie,<br /><br />I'm sure I should abandon the universal consensus of the church's best and brightest leaders from across the globe and throughout history to obey the demands of a tiny vocal minority localized (physically or intellectually) in the twilight of the secular West.<br /><br />Good plan.Chris Larimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01770607122746467750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-20277414701747002562011-01-08T09:16:01.649-08:002011-01-08T09:16:01.649-08:00OK Chris,
Did you sleep through reading comprehens...OK Chris,<br />Did you sleep through reading comprehension and the study of the Reformed Confessions too? Yes, at least most of the church has held up the standard you site, but that doesn't mean they're right. Your position derives from a Conservative, un-Reformed fallacy.<br /><br />"polite vagueness of previous eras"<br />Oh, that's hilarious! You were trying to be funny, right?<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT3_UCm1A5IKattiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313727490126385824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-14517733592720010802011-01-07T15:38:30.627-08:002011-01-07T15:38:30.627-08:00For the record, Aric and I have both made many fi...For the record, Aric and I have both made many fine arguments as to how homosexuality is not necessarily sinful (joining with many smarter actual-scholar types), any more than heterosexuality...of course, I have no illusions as to whether Chris will ever address them after all these years. <br /><br />So I affirm ongoing unrepentant homosexuality because it isn't sin and therefore needs no repentance.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7226481506470506962.post-29910439186361469502011-01-07T13:51:42.509-08:002011-01-07T13:51:42.509-08:00Kattie,
As Alan will tell you, I mainly slept th...Kattie, <br /><br />As Alan will tell you, I mainly slept through seminary so I'm not sure what Councils you're speaking of. Can you point to one where there was disagreement over the sinfulness of non-marital sex? You may point to the polite vagueness of previous eras ("defilers of boys" or "sin against nature"), but it's not really possible to say that the church has ever held up any sexual standard apart from male-female lifelong monogamous and sexual exclusive marriage OR chastity in the absence of such marriage.Chris Larimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01770607122746467750noreply@blogger.com